Protectorate Jack Marshalling and you

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Kaboom!
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Protectorate Jack Marshalling and you

Post by Kaboom! » Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:28 am

All across Immoren, noone waves a flag quite like the followers of the True Law! The new Exemplar Bastion Seneschal is no exception - but is it worth its three points?
On paper, you seem to be getting quite a lot: 3 points for a bastion solo delivering synergies with bastions and jacks sounds sweet on paper.
However, what I can't seem to wrap my head around the hype on the fact that the Protectorate has received a Jack Marshal.
No mistake, Protectorate has the tools to make a marshalled jack shine: Choir and vassal can buff them and a reclaimer could give the jack additional focus. But wait, assuming you took the choir and the vassal anyway, the jack that you're marshalling suddenly comes at a 5 point premium with the reclaimer and the bastion. Furthermore, you're missing out on a warcaster's battlegroup benefits. Let's look at the casters in detail.

High Exemplar Kreoss
Maybe? It really depends on the rest of your list. If you skew it towards pop & drop, load up on focus hungry redeemers/reckoners while still wanting to cast purification and upkeep defender's ward/lamentation, this might do you some good but leave you with very little points for chaff.

Epic: Grand Exemplar Kreoss
No. Investing in a costly jack package for a caster that has focus to spare and would rather have troops doesn't seem like the ideal pick to me.

Epic: Intercessor Kreoss
No. He would play it fast & furious, not really the defining trait of a Bastion. His calling card warpath won't work on marshalled jacks.

High Reclaimer
Yes. That's the one. The high reclaimer is slow, doesn't do much for jacks (except sac lamb) and per se likes to spend/camp his focus. The most important aspect for synergy is probably that bastions work well with him geting a commander is gravy.

Epic: Testament of Menoth
Maybe. Similar to the high reclaimer, but not as much synergy.

Grand Scrutator Severius
Maybe. Here's an option. The old man is a focus miser.

Epic: Hierarch Severius
No. His epic incarnation would love jacks in his battlegroup for awareness

Feora Priestess of the Flame
Maybe. If you play her a front line caster you probably want to keep that focus to yourself - another viable option if bastions aren't too slow for you.

Epic: Feora, Protector of the Flame
No. A marshalled jack will miss out on escort and feat focus allocation shenanigans.

High Allegiant Amon Ad'Raza
No. Too many battlegroup synergies you're missing out on.

Harbinger of Menoth
Maybe. No specific battlegroup benefits but the Harbinger has focus to spare if any caster does.

High Executioner Servath Reznik
No. You miss out on witch hound and perdition shenanigans. If you're not interesting in these, consider Thyra :)

Vice Scrutator Vindictus
No. If you're playing Vindictus, you're playing him for his infantry support. If you want to run multiple jacks, you have sac-lamb.

Thyra, Flame of Sorrow
Maybe. Again a fast force that might be slowed down by the Bastion ball & chain.


Menoth is often considered a Jack faction - the Reckoner is often mentioned. What is seldom mentioned: Most of them are Focus hogs. So here are the top three I'd consider marshalling (3 because they're really all of them I'd remotely consider).

1. Sanctifier: Expensive but self-sufficient, creating his own focus.
2. Vanquisher: Very focus efficient shooty jack that complements the melee slogging bastions.
3. Castigator: Is a jack that is often an inferior choice to the vanquisher. Anti-infantry alternative that can use the focus for a double-handed throw in a pinch.

So that's that. Bottom line: There are only a few positives there. If you look at all the maybe's consider opportunity costs. To get the maximum out of your three points, you'll want both bastions and a jack. Ask yourself four questions:

- My caster has little focus to spare?
- My caster gives little adds little battlegroup benefits to jacks?
- My caster loves to bring bastions?
- Do I need a jack that does something that a Vessel of Judgement with mechanics (or anything similar at the same points cost) can't do better?

If you could answer all those questions with a loud YES, then you should consider getting the Seneschal. If not, consider other options (battle engine, another three points solo, wracks + hierophant, etc...)

That's just my view on it, however. Please point out if I've missed something vital here.
- Reznik, what is best in life?
- To crush the enemy, seen them driven before me and hear the lamentations of the wracks!

Dagowit
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Post by Dagowit » Wed Mar 13, 2013 11:44 am

Aren't you forgetting that the Bastion Sceneschal does other things besides pushing 'jacks around? Sure, three points for a 'jack Marshal might not be ideal with a number of 'casters - but how about something which also prevents your models from fleeing (Commander) and heals your unit(s?) of medium based infantry?

I am no Protectorate* expert but I think you might want that model from time to time even without 'jacks - but like a ton of models in this game, it might only work well with a limited number of lists.


*"Protectorate", by the way, is the name of the faction you are referring to. Of course, you might be playing Menoth but then we are talking about delusions of grandeur at best and serious schizophrenia at worst :D
"Menoth" happens to be their god - just as Cryx is not called Toruk, the Retribution is not called Scyrah, Circle is not called the Devourer Wurm, and Legion is not called Everblight (even though some of those do have the "X of Y" name format)...

Kaboom!
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Post by Kaboom! » Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:19 pm

Dagowit wrote:Aren't you forgetting that the Bastion Sceneschal does other things besides pushing 'jacks around? Sure, three points for a 'jack Marshal might not be ideal with a number of 'casters - but how about something which also prevents your models from fleeing (Commander) and heals your unit(s?) of medium based infantry?

I am no Protectorate* expert but I think you might want that model from time to time even without 'jacks - but like a ton of models in this game, it might only work well with a limited number of lists.


*"Protectorate", by the way, is the name of the faction you are referring to. Of course, you might be playing Menoth but then we are talking about delusions of grandeur at best and serious schizophrenia at worst :D
"Menoth" happens to be their god - just as Cryx is not called Toruk, the Retribution is not called Scyrah, Circle is not called the Devourer Wurm, and Legion is not called Everblight (even though some of those do have the "X of Y" name format)...
Thanks for your input. I did mention that for three points, there is a lot of utility attached to that model. The Commander rule (guessing it'll be a value of 9) couples quite nicely with High Reclaimer and the Testament. So if you brought a KES or Visgoth Rhoven (wielder of the Staff of Sulon!) just for the commander trait, it's an option! What I probably should have written in bold is "opportunity cost" and that all those rules are budgeted in the model's point cost. It's a "wouldn't you rather have x" or "I'd rather it be y points cheaper than having x". A good example would be critical fire or consume on a P+S 18 weapon. In this case, if you just take the seneschal for the commander benefit, Rhoven might cost more but gives more attacks, speed and abilities in regards to your list. If you're bringing bastions, the relative value of the Seneschal increases further. Granted, this alone might be worth it's points (haven't tested it yet of course) but you're still spending points for his Jack abilities. So if you really want to milk the mini for all its worth, you'll want to marshal a jack. The only caster that I see really fitting this is the High Reclaimer.
For others casters, having those three points for a different utility solo like Eyriss, Gorman, Nicia, Madeleine, etc. would perhaps add more.


On "Menoth". Yes, I saw I used it once. Let's assume I play Hierarch Severius who is the representative of Menoth on Immoren and His True Voice. For that matter, Severius Is Menoth's will and only takes orders from the Shaper of Man himself. Now how do you explain that I guide him through the fields of battle with just a poke of my fingers?

By extension, do I play Menoth when I play Absylonia? She casts "playing god". We all know that Menoth is the only real god. She is actually "playing Menoth" too! I am pretty sure by that logic I can take her as a second list caster.

Also what's an Orboros or a Scyrah anyway...
- Reznik, what is best in life?
- To crush the enemy, seen them driven before me and hear the lamentations of the wracks!

Dagowit
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Post by Dagowit » Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:23 pm

So a situational model which, nonetheless, does bring something completely new to the faction. I play Cassius and Grayle (not to mention Wolves of Orboros, Arguses, and other things reviled by a large number of Circle players) so it should be obvious that I am OK with that :wink:
Kaboom! wrote:Also what's an Orboros or a Scyrah anyway...
Yay! A chance to completely derail the thread by taking sarcastic remarks seriously :D

"An Orboros" does not (AFAIK) exist. As a side note, "an ouroboros" does in fact exist - but that is not the word we were discussing (although certain iconography suggests that it might have played its part after all). Anyway, the "Circle Orboros" is an organisation which uses primal magic, draws power from the land, fear that a certain god - should it awaken - might lay waste to the world, and generally spend their time with blood sacrifices, holding back civilisation and the Legion of Everblight, as well as a lot of internal political backstabbing.

"Scyrah" is the name of a goddess. One of the elven gods who were strolling about before the human gods (read: Menoth, you delusional megalomaniac) woke up and stopped drooling primeval ooze. Unfortunately, she is not at all well these days, so she spends her time lying on a stone slab in Ios while having a very long - perhaps permanent - nap.

Kaboom!
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Post by Kaboom! » Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:16 pm

I would agree - do something new to the faction is always welcome. Wrath did a lot of that (e.g. stealthy, assassiny angle with Thyra, Battle Engine shenanigans...) and did so nicely.
The Bastion however... I do love me some Bastions despite my gripes and having synergies with Jacks, which I also loves made me happy. In most cases though, a jack just synergises better if it's attached to the caster. From a point investment perspective you have to look at the package. 8 points for bastions, 3 for the Seneschal and an average of 8 points for the Jack. That's 19 points for very tough Bastions, another blessed lance and a jack. You can of course spend more points for reclaimer/vassal. That's almost 50% of your average list.

I think you brought up a similar issue for the circle gargantuan which also brings something new to the faction.

At this stage the way to use him is with 5 bastions for 11 points total and forget about Jack Marshal 90% of the cases. That is my personal opinion and if someone wants to provide points against it will make me happy :) For example, would there be instance where you'd just field him with a Jack? What list?
- Reznik, what is best in life?
- To crush the enemy, seen them driven before me and hear the lamentations of the wracks!

Kaboom!
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Post by Kaboom! » Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:14 pm

Alright, I'll have a stab at 50 points:

pfeora (+6)
- Reckoner (8)
Exemplar Bastion Seneschal (3)
- Vanquisher (8)
Vessel of Judgement (9)
Vassal Mechanic x2 (2)
Vassal of Menoth (2)
Wrack (1)
Exemplar Bastions (full) (8)
Choir of Menoth (min) (2)
Holy Zealots (Full) + UA (8)
Knights Exemplar (5)

Shooty Elements are the Jacks & Vessel, Exemplar Units for hard hitting (+ ignite), Zealots for jamming. pfeora can hit pretty hard herself, clear up jacks with blazing effigy, engine of destruction for hitting power, Wall of fire as protection against lightly armored units and a very situational hex hammer for corner cases against magic.

Feeling good?
- Reznik, what is best in life?
- To crush the enemy, seen them driven before me and hear the lamentations of the wracks!

Dagowit
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Post by Dagowit » Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:21 pm

Kaboom! wrote:In most cases though, a jack just synergises better if it's attached to the caster.
As I am slowly starting with a Warmachine faction, I am beginning to realise that Focus is a much more limited resource than Fury. You want to Upkeep spells, maybe cast a new one, and fuel your 'jacks. A 'jack Marshal cannot give Battlegroup bonuses but it does guarantee a pseudo-focus every turn (even when the 'jack is out of CTRL of your 'caster) so it saves resources and enhances your mobility. Finally, many Marshalls have some kind of Drive which offers advantages to a 'jack which it would not have in a Battlegroup.

Kaboom!
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Post by Kaboom! » Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:54 pm

Dagowit wrote:
Kaboom! wrote:In most cases though, a jack just synergises better if it's attached to the caster.
As I am slowly starting with a Warmachine faction, I am beginning to realise that Focus is a much more limited resource than Fury. You want to Upkeep spells, maybe cast a new one, and fuel your 'jacks. A 'jack Marshal cannot give Battlegroup bonuses but it does guarantee a pseudo-focus every turn (even when the 'jack is out of CTRL of your 'caster) so it saves resources and enhances your mobility. Finally, many Marshalls have some kind of Drive which offers advantages to a 'jack which it would not have in a Battlegroup.
Another thing to keep in mind about jacks and focus: Jacks, while often having a higher P+S, have max 2 initial attacks (unless you're deathjack) with max 3 focus to allocate (unless bonded or, again, deathjack). For beast it is not uncommon to have 3 initial attacks and 4 fury to buy more with on the other hand. That is 7 attacks vs. 5 attacks.
Herding is a bad aequivalent to a jack marshal but the closest you have. The beasts can still be forced to do 7 attacks, while a marshalled average jack will only do max 3 attacks - 2 if his off-weapon is a gun. Even if you let your beast frenzy next turn, that will still be more attacks in total over two turns.

Also: If the Bastion Seneschal gets a drive, I will delete this thread and eat it.
- Reznik, what is best in life?
- To crush the enemy, seen them driven before me and hear the lamentations of the wracks!

Kaptajn Congoboy
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Post by Kaptajn Congoboy » Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:08 am

I think you're undervaluing him with Vindictus. Sac Lamb is a bit of a trap with him, since it is most effective with many jacks and Vindictus main support target is as you say everything that is not jacks (he spends 4 focus turns 1-3 casting True Path and upkeeping Defenders Ward, or 5 when cycling DW). Marshalling, say, the Sanctifier alongside the +2SPD infantry horde, you can advance it and fill it up while Defender's Warded infantry slowly die and provide souls. In the typical Vindictus list, you will have a first line of shooters that can deliver your Bastions and provide the first crop of souls. The Sanctifier can provide what is essentially 4 Focus worth of butt-whipping at P+S17/19, which is far more reliable than the P+S12 Weapon Master attacks of your strongest melee unit. Addionally, with decent placement, he can be warded against further attacks by Bastions with Defenders Ward and get another round of whack-a-heretic-with-Menofix-club off. If the Lawgiver truly has as shine on you, he can get Defender's Ward once they've gotten rid of most of the bastions.

It also strikes me that you haven't played High Reclaimer much. Once the going gets tough, HR has focus to spare and no mistake...typically too much for your liking, actually.
-Kaptajnen

Dagowit
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Post by Dagowit » Thu Mar 14, 2013 11:31 am

Kaboom! wrote:Another thing to keep in mind about jacks and focus: Jacks, while often having a higher P+S, have max 2 initial attacks (unless you're deathjack) with max 3 focus to allocate (unless bonded or, again, deathjack). For beast it is not uncommon to have 3 initial attacks and 4 fury to buy more with on the other hand. That is 7 attacks vs. 5 attacks.
1) All true. Usually 'beasts are more expensive, though, so they had better be better :wink:
The main disadvantage of 'beasts is that they have to stay in CTRL to be forced, so no charging at distant models if you want those 7 attacks (yes, Legion Shepherds, I know).

2) Your obsession with the Deathjack is unhealthy. Sure, it casts spells and has 5 focus - which is unquestionably excellent - but you can affect it with Telekinesis or Curse of Shadows and it does not have MAT 10, Reach, and ARM 21 - unlike a certain self-sufficient Protectorate 'jack I really hate to see across from me...

Kaboom!
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Post by Kaboom! » Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:16 pm

Not very much experience with the high reclaimer although I like his concept. I'd still say they synergise quite well. I find it quite challenging in an interesting way to balance a list to his playstyle as in how many jacks you give him. Letting your marshal do the heavy jack lifting means you have more focus for clouds, ashes to ashes and camping. I'll trust your judgement on that one. You make vindictus sound like an interesting option too. I'll take back my statement :)

Another idea, and this is me warming up to the solo, is taking two full bastion units and two seneschals. At this point it gets filthy because you can heal up to ten boxes from each unit. Add defender's ward and annoy a lot of people.

Great to get some feedback on the little guy!

Also: I never said I don't like the Avatar. Doesn't mean that I wouldn't also feel a deathjack (purified and anointed ofc!)
- Reznik, what is best in life?
- To crush the enemy, seen them driven before me and hear the lamentations of the wracks!

Kaptajn Congoboy
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Post by Kaptajn Congoboy » Thu Mar 14, 2013 7:07 pm

I played the hell out of Silent Bob back in Mk1. His playstyle is very entertaining. Unfortunately, he absolutely requires playing against people who cannot see through his clouds, or things go pear-shaped immediately.

Has it been confirmed whether you can double-dip on healing?
-Kaptajnen

Kaboom!
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Post by Kaboom! » Thu Mar 14, 2013 7:31 pm

Not infernal-ed but if the wording stands it should work.
http://privateerpressforums.com/showthr ... schal-Info

edit: Here's the wording apparently: Leadership [Exemplar Bastions] - Friendly Exemplar Bastion models heal 1 damage point when they begin an activation in this model's command range.
Last edited by Kaboom! on Fri Mar 15, 2013 9:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
- Reznik, what is best in life?
- To crush the enemy, seen them driven before me and hear the lamentations of the wracks!

Kaboom!
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Post by Kaboom! » Fri Mar 15, 2013 9:37 am

How about this then:

pfeora (+6)
- Reckoner (8)
Exemplar Bastion Seneschal (3)
- Vanquisher (8)
Exemplar Bastion Seneschal (3)
- Vanquisher (8)
Exemplar Bastions (full) (8)
Exemplar Bastions (full) (8)
Choir of Menoth (min) (2)
Holy Zealots (Full) + UA (8)

Shooty Elements are the Jacks, Exemplar Units for hard hitting (blessed + ignite juggle if the stars align correctly :) ), Zealots for jamming. pfeora can take care of both high def targets jamming you with blazing effigy and can dirtnap things herself with engine of destruction for hitting power, Wall of fire as protection against lightly armored units.

I think it feels quite good as an all-round list. Any inputs on the jack set-up? Alternatives could be to replace the vanquishers with sanctifiers and add a redeemer instead of the reckoner, which would be nice to hedge bets against fire immunity. They could also be replaced with repenters which cost half as much and fill the same role at half the price which leaves you with 4-8 points to play around with.
- Reznik, what is best in life?
- To crush the enemy, seen them driven before me and hear the lamentations of the wracks!

Kaboom!
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Post by Kaboom! » Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:24 am

Quick update: apparently, it has been infernalled that bastions do NOT heal multiple times with multiple seneschals. So he's a bit worse than I thought in that department. After a playtest, I also found out that I underestimated the logistical problems in shuffling 12 medium bastions (call it the glacier package from here on) across the table at speed 4. It's a good thing I didn't pick trolls as a second faction I guess... :)

On the upside: the seneschal and the sanctifier definitely wore the friendship bracelet that match. Full on souls, the sancty gets the aequivalent of 4 focus, which is very tasty!
- Reznik, what is best in life?
- To crush the enemy, seen them driven before me and hear the lamentations of the wracks!

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